Hi, John. Thanks for taking the time and prayer to work through these matters with me.
I agree with your response to the various tests applied to truth claims. My aim was to provide us with criteria that were workable in comparing truth claims that cannot ultimately be proven so that we are going beyond mere opinion.
Regarding a couple of other matters that you raise in your post:
You wrote:
… our main concern was [snip] I thought, whether the Genesis
account of creation was intended by its Author to be understood in a
literal sense.
My response:
You spent a good deal of time in your April 10 response dealing with
the thought of whether a literal interpretation of the Genesis
account is material to faith as far as the biblical writers are
concerned (which was my main concern). You demonstrated that the
Genesis account is considered history by biblical writers but I am
not convinced that you have demonstrated the centrality of a biblical
cosmogony to matters of faith.
Let me bring this matter into focus with a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 'the just shall live by faith.'
The subjects being discussed by Habakkuk are the Chaldean (1:6) and those from among the Habakkuk's own nation of Israel. By 'faith' Habakkuk is not talking about the importance of having the law of Moses. The law had been made slack because of violence in the land (1:2): 'the wicked compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedth' (1:4).
The prophecy demonstrates that uprightness of soul (2:4a) is the result of faith apart from a revelation that is given to Israel.
On the one hand, it doesn't help Israel avoid the judgment of God to have the right revelation. And, on the other hand, it doesn't stop those from outside Israel from being able to exercise faith.
This is an important point, John. And I could make it from numerous places in the Bible: God does not count us righteous because we have the right revelation or truth claim. He counts us righteous when we are righteous; that is, when our soul is upright.
This brings me to another point you have raised:
In a world that "layeth in wickedness" (1 John 5:19) that loves
darkness rather than light, we ought to expect that our message will
not be readily accepted by most.
My response:
Look more closely at 1 John. It is to those who 'walk in the light'
whom God applies the atonement (1:7 'the blood … cleanseth us').
And in the wider context of John's writings, Christ is the light
which 'lighteth every man' (John 1:9). We do not enter the light by
having the right belief about cosmogony, John. We are in the light
when we walk in what every man possesses.
Hopefully my brevity will not sacrifice clarity. You wanted to stick with the biblical text as we have it and that is what I am attempting to do.
Thanks for the continued discussion
JB
Date sent: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 18:47:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: TESTING FOR TRUTH + OTHER STUFF
From: johnf@carewinnipeg.com
To: JB
> Hi, JB
>
> Sorry its taken me a while to respond to your mail. We run a pretty
> busy ship around here (3 young children with 1 on the way, full-time
> job and ministry on the side-whew!). Anyway, here's my response
> (I'm attaching it as a word doc.because this way I can work on my
> response on my computer at work, plus MS Word has spell-check and my
> spelling is attroshuss!)
>
> I'm hoping it'll make sense to you, and perhaps introduce some
> concepts and perspectives you haven't considered.
>
> Stay well,
>
> John Feakes
Thank you for your thoughts.
In your last mail you wrote that I "…spent a good deal of time … dealing with the thought of whether a literal interpretation of the Genesis account is material to faith as far as the biblical writers are concerned (which was my main concern). You demonstrated that the Genesis account is considered history by biblical writers but I am not convinced that you have demonstrated the centrality of a biblical cosmogony to matters of faith.
With all due respect, I'm really having a hard time understanding how you can admit that the New Testament writers considered Genesis 1-11 literal history, but deny that history's centrality to the Gospel message. The New Testament claims to be the word of God given to us by His Spirit (2 Peter 1:21). Notice in John 16:13 the Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of Truth who guides us into all truth. .According to Titus 1:2, Numbers 23:19 and Hebrews 6:18, God cannot lie.
So what did this "God that cannot lie" say through the pens of His New Testament writers? You said yourself that based on what they wrote- moved as they were by the God that cannot lie-they considered the Genesis account to be historical. So who are we calling a liar if we deny the historicity of Genesis 1-11? How can this not be central to the Christian message?
Also remember that according to 2 Timothy 3:16 - ALL Scripture is God inspired and is profitable for DOCTRINE. All scripture certainly includes Genesis - which reads like literal history, and the New Testament, which treats it like literal history.
In Matthew 4:4 Jesus quotes Deuteronomy 8:3, which tells us that we are to live by EVERY word of God. Again, this must include Genesis 1-11 and the New Testament's inspired commentary on it.
2 Peter 3:16 gives us a warning about people twisting scripture to THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION. If Genesis appears to be literal history, and is commented on by the New Testament's God-inspired writers as literal history, then in light of this verse, is it wise to write Gen 1-11 off as inconsequential and open to any and all interpretations?
Let me bring this matter into focus with a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 'the just shall live by faith.'
The subjects being discussed by Habakkuk are the Chaldean (1:6) and those from among the Habakkuk's own nation of Israel. By 'faith' Habakkuk is not talking about the importance of having the law of Moses. The law had been made slack because of violence in the land (1:2): 'the wicked compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedth' (1:4). The prophecy demonstrates that uprightness of soul (2:4a) is the result of faith apart from a revelation that is given to Israel.
The passage says no such thing. All it tells us is that the just shall live by faith. We are left to ask, "Faith in what?" Faith cannot exist in a vacuum. It needs an object. Are we suggesting, after all that we read about the importance of correct doctrine, that the Chaldeans then, or people today for that matter, may be counted righteous simply by living by faith in whatever religious systems / philosophies they choose? Unthinkable.
According to Romans 3:2, it was to the Jews ALONE that the oracles of God were granted. Jesus said that it was in the Scriptures that one was to find eternal life (because they testified about Him - John 5:39). I know that the text does not say so explicitly, but to be consistent with all that is written in the Scriptures, I cannot help but believe that any admonition to the Chaldeans was to live by faith in the God of Israel and His word.
For the sake of argument, let's suppose that the passage in question really does mean that a person could be just before God with acknowledging Him or His special revelation. According to Paul's inspired message to the Athenians in Acts 17: 24-31, those days must surely be over:
"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshiped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."
Notice three important things about this passage. First, that all are guilty before God (this is a theme we will come back to). Second, the clear statement by Paul that a new age has dawned, one in which God is through "winking" (Lit. "overlooking" - not coming forward to punish) the idolatry of the nations. Today one must repent and place their faith in the Christ of Scripture (1 Corinthians 15:1-8). This brings us to the third point. Isn't it interesting to note how Paul's evangelistic efforts began with Jesus and the resurrection (Acts 17:18), but when he was scoffed at he backed up and started again, this time beginning with comments about CREATION? .Notice the prominence that the creation plays in Paul's evangelistic efforts here. He specifically mentions the unanimity of the human race "of one blood." - under Adam we may be sure.
Matthew 28:19 contains Jesus' marching orders for the Church, which is definitely evangelistic in nature:
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."
One of the things Jesus taught on was marriage and divorce, which according to the above passage we also must teach. This teaching is inextricably anchored to the Genesis account of creation (Matthew 19:4-6, Mark 10:6-9). How can I relate all things that Jesus taught and still maintain the position that the Genesis account of creation is irrelevant?
1 Corinthians 15 - I think is the best example of how integral the Genesis account of creation is to the Gospel message. From verses 1-8 Paul recounts the message that he first gave the Corinthians upon his arrival there, which includes details concerning Christ's death and His post resurrection appearances. At verse 21 Paul begins to link the Gospel message inextricably to the Genesis account, a thought that he expands upon throughout the chapter. How on earth you can maintain that the Genesis account of creation is somehow a side issue is really beyond me.
On the one hand, it doesn't help Israel avoid the judgment of God to have the right revelation.
I agree that simply possessing the word of God does nothing for the man who refuses to place his faith in God in accordance with what He has written. However, to suggest that having the right revelation is unessential for salvation is very inconsistent with what the Scriptures actually teach. (I'll substantiate this in just a sec)
And, on the other hand, it doesn't stop those from outside Israel from being able to exercise faith.
Yes, they can exercise faith, but faith in what? The priests of Baal who competed with Elijah had faith - tons of it. They even cut themselves in order to gain sympathy from their reluctant God. That's sincerity. That's faith. But their faith was in the wrong thing. Faith is good only if it's directed toward God. Anything else is idolatry. There's no other way to say it.
This is an important point, John. And I could make it from numerous places in the Bible: God does not count us righteous because we have the right revelation or truth claim.
I find it incredible that after agreeing to confine our discussion to what the Bible teaches that you could make statements like these. Having the correct truth claim is absolutely essential:
"Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Savior;" Titus 1:1-3
"If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God, which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God, hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God, hath made him a liar, because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son, hath life; and he that hath not the Son, hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the Name of the Son of God, that ye may know, that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the Name of the Son of God." 1 John 5:9-13
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32 (Jesus IS the truth - John 14:6)
"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:15-16
"Then said they unto him, what shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom He hath sent." John 6:28-29
He counts us righteous when we are righteous; that is, when our soul is upright.
You're right, God is a fair judge, and he would certainly deem us righteous if we were. But here's the rub: No one is righteous:
"What then? Are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are altogether become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Romans 3:9-12
"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." Isaiah 64:6
"Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?" Proverbs 20:9
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8
The Bible is clear on the topic: There is one way to be deemed righteous in God's sight: By placing our faith in Him
This brings me to another point you have raised: In a world that "layeth in wickedness" (1 John 5:19) that loves darkness rather than light, we ought to expect that our message will not be readily accepted by most.
My response:
Look more closely at 1 John. It is to those who 'walk in the light'
whom God applies the atonement (1:7 'the blood ... cleanseth us').
And in the wider context of John's writings, Christ is the light
which 'lighteth every man' (John 1:9). We do not enter the light by
having the right belief about cosmogony, John. We are in the light
when we walk in what every man possesses.
It's important to remember that there are some scriptures that are "hard to be understood" (2 Peter 3:16). The wording of John 1:9 is a bit ambiguous, and commentators are divided as to what the text is actually saying to us. Your interpretation that every man has Christ already and they only need to walk in him may not be correct. The phrase, "lighteth every man" may simply refer to the propagation of the Gospel to all nations (as opposed to only the Jews). It may also refer to the fact that all wisdom in man comes from Jesus, and that human intellect itself is "but a ray of his brightness". On this view, human reason itself springs from the Logos - the eternal Reason.
The point is, it only makes sense to interpret a difficult passage with those that are clear. Comparing scripture with scripture, I cannot escape the fact that the special revelation found in the New Testament regarding the person and work of Christ is absolutely essential to salvation.
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe4 in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. "
These verses are so clear they hardly need comment. As for walking in the light, this too seems impossible apart from God's special revelation:
Psalm 119:130: "The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple."
Proverbs 6:23: "For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life":
2 Peter 1:19: "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:"
To sum up:
I agree with you 100% that walking in the light is not about accepting the Genesis account of creation as factual history (I'm sure the devil does that). It's about accepting the Jesus of Scripture as our Lord and saviour. But what do these words mean exactly? I'll tell you what they don't mean. They don't mean second-guessing what God has clearly written, and arbitrarily designating certain portions of scripture as irrelevant.
There is much more to be said in this connection, but just let me sum up with a parable of my own:
I work in the aerospace industry, where we inspect and repair aircraft engines in accordance with the original engine manufacturer's manuals. On the job, these manuals are like the Bible. Every time we touch a part, we must present objective evidence that what we did is was accordance to what is written in the manual. The instructions contained in these manuals are very specific, and in 95% of the time, quite clear. Now I'm sure that if I thought about it long enough, I could find ambiguity in any set of instructions that the manual contains. The fact is, however, I simply don't have that luxury. We all know what the manual says and we are expected to follow it and get the job done.
I truly believe that in the Bible we have a similar situation. The message of Christ is linked to the Genesis account of creation in an inextricable way -we both know that-So why the push to somehow separate the two? Why not just preach the Gospel message as we have it in the scriptures? I know that the Bible, like the manuals I work with, can be analysed in such a fashion that the plain meaning of the text is set aside as an endless array of alternate understandings are pondered. But is this really being honest with our intellect?
This mail is why longer than I intended it to be. Please forgive the lengthiness of it as you muse upon its contents.
I look forward to your reply.
John Feakes