Hi, John.
You wrote: Paul's clear message of salvation by grace through faith in no way contradicts the Old Testament scriptures (unless we've already decided that God's salvation must be works-based).
You, also, wrote: None of these passages proves your point, even with your intentional omission of Ephesians 2:8-9, which clearly declares that salvation is achieved without our effort. "Not of works, lest any man should boast", is a very clear statement. It takes a lot of linguistic and philosophical maneuvering to get around this one.
My response: Our definition of 'salvation' differ in that my understanding is a salvation dependent upon our obedience while your understanding is that salvation is 'extrinsic' or dependent, rather, on the righteousness of Christ. Perhaps a look at Ephesians in light of the OT texts Paul quotes may help to clarify where our paths diverge.
Paul quotes Psalm 68:18 (Eph 4:8); Zech 8:16 (4:25); Psalm 4:4 (LXX in 4:26); Gen 2:24 (5:31) and Exodus 20:12 and Deuteronomy 5:16 (6:2- 3).
Zechariah is a very good OT source to bring together the idea of Eph 2:8-9 and the idea that we are 'saved by grace through faith … not of yourselves … not of works' and 'we are created in Christ Jesus to do good works.' In Zech 3:1ff Joshua (representing Jerusalem) is accused before God by Satan. Satan is rebuked and Joshua given clean garments: 'saved by grace through faith … not of yourselves … not of works.'
However, this forgiveness in no way relaxes the demand of the law and the reason why Jerusalem had been destroyed according to the former prophets. Zechariah 8 intersperses the great promise for Jerusalem (1- 8; 11-13c; 14-15; 19-23) with warnings (v13d 'fear not … let your hands be strong'; v16 'speak every man truth … execute judgment … let none of you imagine evil … for all these things I hate').
The same condition for the actualization of the promise to Abraham is reitereated for the remnant (8:8 'I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness' cf. Gen 18:18). In the context of Ezra (see Ezra 5:1 where the prophets Haggai and Zechariah enter the scene), the people had stopped the work on the temple because of resistance and a letter of accusation sent to Artaxerxes (4:23-24). Because of this work stoppage, the judgment of God had come on the people (see Hag 1:5 'consider your ways, Ye have sown much and bring in little [et al]' and Zech 8:10 'for before these days there was no hire [et al]') Also, note the reference to the 'former prophets' (Zech 7:9).
Eph 4:25 quotes/alludes to Zech 8:16 'speak ye every man truth to his neighbor.' This demonsntrates a continuity between OT and NT which best interprets Paul as pointing to obedience as necessary for the actualization of the promise 'for the fruit of the light is in all goodness and justice [dikaiosune = zedeqah (v8d)] and truth [aletheia = emeth (Eph 5:9 cf. Zech 8:8d)].
If the people of Zechariah's day had not responded to the call of the prophets to start the rebuilding, there would be no forgiveness and no promise (i.e. no salvation). Conversely, because the people had responded 'I will not be unto the residue of this people as in the former days' (v11).
Ephesians scope is best represented in line with the idea that we see in the post-exilic texts: 'he chose us … to be holy' (Eph 1:4 finite verb followed by the infinitive cf. Col 1:22 'reconciled us … in order to present us holy')
Thus, I would suggest that
1. Election is an election to holiness rahter than an election apart from holiness so that the works must follow in order for the salvation to be actualized.
2. It is those who combine hearing with faith who are the elect (cf. Parable of the Sower developing the idea of Isaiah 6:10 [Luke 8:12ff and Mat 13:13ff].
3. We only know that we are elect as we continue in truth and justice (Eph 5:9)
4. The sacrifice of Christ applies to those who are 'followers of God' while his wrath applies to those who are disobedient (Eph 5:1 cf v6' wrath upon the children of disobedience')
Hope this helps to clarify some of my understanding of salvation and works.
All the best, thanks for taking the time and thought, JB.
"And [Judas] cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself." Matthew 27:5
"…Go and do thou likewise." Luke 10:37
No, I'm not recommending that you do this, JB! I'm just giving you a friendly (hopefully humorous) reminder that Bible texts ought not to be pieced together haphazardly, or serious doctrinal errors will inevitably result.
Our definition of 'salvation' differ in that my understanding is a salvation dependent upon our obedience while your understanding is that salvation is 'extrinsic' or dependent, rather, on the righteousness of Christ.
For the record, I absolutely agree with your description of my position: I firmly believe that our salvation really has nothing to do with human effort whatsoever. We need only acknowledge our sinful and hopeless condition and accept Christ's merciful offer to save us. This is the clear teaching of the New Testament:
Titus 3:5: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."
Luke 18:9-14: The parable of the Pharisee and the publican. Notice verses 13-14: "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to be a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other:"
John 6:29: "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."
Romans 4:5, and of course Ephesians 2:8-9, the text we now have before us.
It's interesting to notice that Paul's epistles, with rare exception, begin with doctrinal declarations concerning God, faith and salvation, and then move to instructions concerning the practical application of our faith. Ephesians chapters 1-3, if taken at face value, I think clearly teach a salvation based not on our works, but on our faith in the person and work of Christ.
Chapters 4-6, forms the section of Paul's epistle where the focus is the practical outworking of this faith. This is the section you have chosen to focus on in order to support your view that salvation is dependent upon our obedience. My question is, if salvation really was dependent upon our obedience, why does Paul not clearly say so in the opening chapters of this (or any other) epistle? It cannot be denied that Ephesians 2:8-9 (like Romans 4:5) certainly appear misleading if salvation really was dependent upon human effort.
Are we really to believe that the Ephesians were expected to abandon the clear meaning of Paul's epistle, and instead reinterpret it in the light of a cryptic salvation message discovered only by mixing and matching portions of Old Testament text? The Epistle to the Ephesians (along with Romans and Galatians) is very clear in its teaching that we are saved from the penalty of sin when we place our trust in Jesus Christ.
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" 1:4
To make this text say what you want it to, we must assume that it is possible for a human being to achieve holiness by his own effort. The Bible is clear about this being impossible. Think about it. If we could achieve holiness on our own, what need would there be for the new birth? (John 3:3-6, 2 Corinthians 5:17, Titus 3:5) Notice that a baby being born really has nothing to do with the birthing process. The mother does all the work (or the doctor if the kid is born c-section).
"Having predestinated us unto the adoption by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." 1:4-6
Did you ever notice that the adoption process depends solely upon the one doing the adopting? Like the birthing process that has nothing to do with the efforts of the one being born, adoption has nothing at all to do with the efforts of the one being adopted.
"In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace:" 1:7
Again, pretty clear statements, with no mention whatever to human effort. This seems to run contrary to your view that forgiveness is dependent upon obedience
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." 1:13-14
This statement hardly needs comment. The Ephesians were sealed with the Holy Spirit after they believed. Doesn't this echo what happened to Cornelius (Acts 10:43-44)? Notice that the Spirit is given as a down payment for us, God's purchased possession.
In chapter 4, Paul starts to really hammer down on what a Christian's conduct should be. But notice even here his statement, "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption (4:30).
How else are we to interpret clear passages of Scripture such as these, but to suppose that those who place their trust in Christ are saved already, apart from good works?
"However, this forgiveness in no way relaxes the demand of the law…"
Yes, Paul goes on to instruct the Ephesians on how they are to behave, but he has already established their position in Christ in no uncertain terms. We do good works because we are saved, not in order to be saved.
It's important to understand where and how God's dealings with national Israel and the salvation offered to the individual believer in Christ correspond. With all due respect, I really feel you have misunderstood some of this.
The physical deliverance of Israel from her enemies was always dependent upon her obedience to God. Likewise, disobedience on the part of the believer in Christ will result in chastisement (Hebrews 12:5-9), even to the point where the offender may die (1 Corinthians 11:29-30) or be turned over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh. But notice that his soul is still saved (1 Corinthians 3:15, 5:5).
Israel's salvation from the wrath of God himself, on the other hand, is pure grace. In Exodus 32:7-14 we read of how God stayed his hand from destroying rebellious Israel, but was prevented by His own word. Similarly, the clear teaching of the New Testament is that our spiritual salvation is not dependent upon our obedience but upon our faith in Christ, according to such promises as we are considering (Eph 2:8-9, Roms 4:5, etc). Like God's gracious promise not to destroy national Israel, so too, the believer in Christ can expect eternal life when his time on earth is done.
Thus, I would suggest that
1. Election is an election to holiness rahter than an election apart from holiness so that the works must follow in order for the salvation to be actualized.
I agree that election is an election to holiness. But it is God, not us, who makes us holy. This is the new birth spoken of in John 3. This is a spiritual rebirth. Our flesh on the other hand, does not change one iota, and until we depart to be with Christ which is far better, our new nature will continue to struggle against our flesh and its desires. Paul himself describes this struggle in Romans 7:15-25.
2. It is those who combine hearing with faith who are the elect (cf. Parable of the Sower developing the idea of Isaiah 6:10 [Luke 8:12ff and Mat 13:13ff].
I agree with this. Hebrews 4:2 speaks of the Israelites that had the word preached to them which was of no benefit because it was not mixed with faith.
3. We only know that we are elect as we continue in truth and justice (Eph 5:9)
I see no clear precedent for this. We know we are saved because God can be trusted in what He clearly said. He told us, in no uncertain terms, that our salvation is dependent solely on his great person and finished work of redemption.
4. The sacrifice of Christ applies to those who are 'followers of God' while his wrath applies to those who are disobedient (Eph 5:1 cf v6' wrath upon the children of disobedience')
Christ's sacrifice applies to all who respond to him in faith:
"…if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:9-13
Your distinction between a salvation that is actualized vs. a non-actualized variety I think is confusing an otherwise clear and simple doctrine. Without any clear statement to support this contention in the New Testament, I'd have to conclude that such a distinction is illusory.
One final thought: If we are to assume that our salvation is dependent upon obedience, based on what you have gleaned from Zechariah, could I not then contend based on Paul's citation of Psalm 68:18 that our salvation is not based on obedience?
"Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them. Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah."
All the best, thanks for taking the time and thought, John.
My pleasure, JB. I'm enjoying our discussion. I'm super-busy though, so it may take a while to get my responses finished.
Stay well,
John Feakes