You wrote (May 15, 2006): Jesus' message of salvation by grace through faith matches Paul's perfectly … you're meshing ideas and scriptures together that simply aren't warranted. It is important to read each passage in its proper context. The universal guilt of mankind … is spelled out for us … [in] passages like [Romans 3:9-12, 23].
My response: My May 9, 2006 post presented a scheme I find brings continuity to the OT/NT. I welcome the challenges you are providing. Divergence of our hermeneutic may become clearer if we start with the OT texts Paul is quoting in Romans 3:9ff: Psalm 14/53:1-3 (Ro 3:10-12); LXX Ps 5:9 (13a); LXX Ps 140:13 (13b); LXX Ps 10:7 (14); Isa 59:7-8 (15-17); Ps 36:1 (18). The Psalms and Isaiah are built on the foundation of a theology derived from Deuteronomy. You have indicated that the OT 'laws and ordinances were given to Israel at a specific time and place and for a specific purpose' as opposed to "other more 'universal' scripture passages [such as 1 Corinthians 4:4]" (May 15, 2006). Because the Psalms and Isaiah are the most often quoted OT texts in the NT (Deuteronomy 50x; Isaiah 65x; and Psalms 79x), and because Deuteronomy provides the basis for the theology of Psalms and Isaiah, my hermeneutic begins with an understanding of the theology of Deuteronomy. It is Jesus' interpretation of Deuteronomy and the prophets that is the cornerstone of my faith. I assume that the apostles move under Jesus authority. This may help you understand how I am interpreting Romans 1-3.
Each of the Psalms Paul is quoting features the righteous (i.e. 14:4; 5:11, 12; 140:13; 10:12; 36:10) hemmed in by the unrighteous. The 'righteous' are those who are led 'in righteousness' (i.e. Ps 5:8). According to Deuteronomy 9:5, I would understand that the righteous are not perfect: 'It is not for [her] righteousness' that God has brought Israel in to possess the land of Canaan but because of the unrighteousness of the previous inhabitants. Yet, Deuteronomy pronounces definite blessings and cursings upon Israel based on their walking in righteousness or not. The law becomes their righteousness as they follow it (6:25 'it will be righteousness [zedeqah] to you before YHWH your God'). God accounts Israel righteousness based on the mercy they show to one another and especially to the orphan, the widow, the stranger and the Levite (i.e. '[the return of a cloak taken in pledge to the poor] will be righteousness [zedeqah] unto thee before YHWH thy God' 24:13). Jesus' Parable of the Unmerciful Servant (Mt 18:23-35) reflects this theology IMO. Thus, it would appear that the righteous of these Psalms will be delivered from the oppression of the wicked as they walk in righteousness [zedeqah] before YHWH. Isaiah 59:9 (quoted in Ro 3:15-17) points to the lack of zedeqah in Israel as the reason why 'judgment is far from us, neither doth [zedeqah] overtake us' (cf. v14). The degree to which we experience zedeqah from oppression is a function of the zedeqah we provide for others (cf. Ge 18:19; Isa 1:27; 32:17; 54:14 and Dan 4:27). IMO this is an accurate reflection of OT theology.
I would interpret Romans in light of this theology. The gospel (Ro 1:2-5) or Jesus interpretation of the OT reveals the power of God for salvation (v16) from the wrath of God evident in his handing over to the destructive power of lust, those who reject the knowledge of himself revealed within them (1:18ff) and embodied in the Law (2:1-16). I would interpret the 'righteousness [dikaiosune = zedeqah] of God' (v17) to be the same as 'salvation' (v16) [on zedeqah as 'salvation' cf. Isaiah 12:7; 46:12, 13; Micah 7:9; Job 33:26; Psalm 22:31; 36:6, 10; 40:10; 51:14; 71:2, 15, 16, 24; 88:12; 143:11]. It is those who walk by the spirit (Ro 8:1 textus receptus cf. 10:8 as a midrash of Deuteronomy 9:4 and 30:12-14) who will experience the salvation from the judgment of God in handing mankind over to the power of the lower nature.
According to the deuteronomic theology of Jesus reflected in Paul, salvation is a function of our obedience to the teaching of Jesus. As we walk in obedience his righteousness becomes our righteousness before God. It is not wholly extrinsic or divorced from our walk as per traditional theology.
Hopefully this helps to clarify my approach to the teaching of Paul in terms of the universal guilt of mankind and how faith in Jesus Christ provides the basis for salvation from sin. I welcome, John, your helping me understand how this interpretation of Paul differs from yours and why.
My May 9, 2006 post presented a scheme I find brings continuity to the OT/NT. I welcome the challenges you are providing. Divergence of our hermeneutic may become clearer if we start with the OT texts Paul is quoting in Romans 3:9ff: Psalm 14/53:1-3 (Ro 3:10-12); LXX Ps 5:9 (13a); LXX Ps 140:13 (13b); LXX Ps 10:7 (14); Isa 59:7-8 (15-17); Ps 36:1 (18). The Psalms and Isaiah are built on the foundation of a theology derived from Deuteronomy…
…Because the Psalms and Isaiah are the most often quoted OT texts in the NT (Deuteronomy 50x; Isaiah 65x; and Psalms 79x), and because Deuteronomy provides the basis for the theology of Psalms and Isaiah, my hermeneutic begins with an understanding of the theology of Deuteronomy.
It cannot be denied that numerous portions of New Testament text, if taken at face value, indicate clearly that a person is saved by faith alone, apart from works (Eph 2:8-9, Romans 4:5, Titus 3:5, John 6:28-29). It also cannot be denied that certain passages in the Old Testament, taken in isolation, at least seem to indicate that salvation is based upon obedience. The difference in our views concerning salvation is based, at least in part, upon our difference of opinion regarding which texts ought to interpret which. It's clear that you believe we ought to interpret Paul's clear statements about salvation by grace through faith (apart from works) by selected OT passages that appear to indicate otherwise. In my opinion, we ought to interpret Old Testament passages in light of the New. There are plenty of good reasons to embrace the latter scheme in order to arrive a proper biblical understanding of the doctrine of salvation:
Matthew 22:29 - Jesus told the Sadducees that they were in error "not knowing the scriptures…" Of course they were well acquainted with the scriptures, but lacked a proper understanding of them.
Matthew 22:41-45 - Jesus asks the religious leaders concerning the meaning of Psalm 110:1. Their silence indicates that this portion of OT text was impossible to explain apart from New Testament revealed truth.
Luke 24:25-states that Jesus opened the understanding of the disciples "that they might understand the Scriptures" - this after 3 years of teaching by their master. This at least implies that important Old Testament truths are not apparent without proper illumination.
Matthew 2:15 - describes the departing of the child Jesus with his family from Egypt as a fulfillment of Hosea 11:1. How could anyone reading Hosea in Old Testament times have interpreted this scripture the way Matthew did?
Mathew 27:9-10 - describes Zechariah 11:12-13 as a prophecy concerning the Messiah's betrayal for 30 pieces of silver. Did anyone in Old Testament times really understand this portion of Scripture this way?
Mark 14:27 - Jesus cites Zechariah 13:7 in reference to Himself. Who could have guessed that this verse was speaking of the abandonment of the Messiah?
Acts 2:16, 20 - Peter refers to 69:25 as his motive for placing Judas. Who could have guessed that this scripture was to be understood this way?
Acts 4:24-28-Here Peter interprets Psalm 2 as a prediction of the opposition Jesus faced on the part of Pilate, Herod, and the Jewish people. Who would have guessed this fulfillment of Psalm 2? Again, New Testament truth appears essential to gain a proper understanding of Old Testament Scripture.
Acts 8:29-35 - Philip's encounter with the Ethiopian begins with Philip's asking him if he understood the text of Isaiah. His answer is instructive: "How can I, unless some man should guide me?" The Ethiopian goes on to ask whether the text was referring to Isaiah himself or to another. Of course Philip goes on to explain that Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus the Messiah. Once again, it is New Testament truth that helps to illuminate a portion of Old Testament text.
Acts 13:28-33 - Paul refers to Psalm 2 as a prophecy concerning the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Who would have guessed that the words "Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?" were speaking of the resurrection of the Messiah from the dead?
The list could go on. The point is, it is the revealed truths found in the New Testament that consistently interpret for us that which is found in the Old. Concerning salvation therefore, I think it only reasonable to interpret Deuteronomy, or any other Old Testament text for that matter, in the light of what has been revealed in the New Testament. This is not to say that the message of salvation by grace through faith is absent from the Old Testament - it is not. The serious student of scripture can find it for sure. However, this doctrine is made ever so clear in the New Testament that there can be no doubt.
It is Jesus' interpretation of Deuteronomy and the prophets that is the cornerstone of my faith. I assume that the apostles move under Jesus authority. This may help you understand how I am interpreting Romans 1-3.
Each of the Psalms Paul is quoting features the righteous (i.e. 14:4; 5:11, 12; 140:13; 10:12; 36:10) hemmed in by the unrighteous.
I don't think that any of these Psalms support your view of salvation.
Psalm 14:
Psalm 5:
Psalm 12:
Psalm 140:
Psalm 10:
Psalm 36:
The 'righteous' are those who are led 'in righteousness' (i.e. Ps 5:8).
Read Psalm 5:8: "Lead me, O LORD, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face." It's God's righteousness that is central. According to 2 Cor. 5:21, God's righteousness is imparted to us because of the substitutionary death of Jesus Christ.
According to Deuteronomy 9:5, I would understand that the righteous are not perfect: 'It is not for [her] righteousness' that God has brought Israel in to possess the land of Canaan but because of the unrighteousness of the previous inhabitants. Yet, Deuteronomy pronounces definite blessings and cursings upon Israel based on their walking in righteousness or not. The law becomes their righteousness as they follow it (6:25 'it will be righteousness [zedeqah] to you before YHWH your God').
Look at Deuteronomy 6:25: "And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us." The question is: Is our righteousness good enough to grant us entrance into heaven? Paul stated that concerning the righteousness that is in the law he was blameless (Phil. 3:6). In 3:7-9 he goes on the state that:
"But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ. And by found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith."
Sure, obedience to the law would grant Israel righteousness, albeit a righteousness short of God's, which is essential for entrance into God's heaven (remember Psalm 5:4-5, and Jesus words concerning even those that knew how to grant good gifts to their children?) Faith in Christ, and the new birth, which comes as a result, is therefore essential in imparting to us the righteousness of Christ. I think that this deficiency in our own righteousness is alluded to in Jeremiah 33:15-16:
"In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the Land. In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."
God accounts Israel righteousness based on the mercy they show to one another and especially to the orphan, the widow, the stranger and the Levite (i.e. '[the return of a cloak taken in pledge to the poor] will be righteousness [zedeqah] unto thee before YHWH thy God' 24:13). Jesus' Parable of the Unmerciful Servant (Mt 18:23-35) reflects this theology IMO.
I cannot disagree more with your take on the Parable of Matthew 18. The main point of the parable is mercy of the king. The unjust servant was utterly unable to pay the debt he owed, though he promised he would. Out of sheer mercy the king forgave the whole debt. This is diametrically opposed to your position that we need to be obedient if we want God to forgive us. On the other hand, it supports rather well my contention that we need only throw ourselves on the mercy of God and acknowledge our helpless and hopeless state in order to be saved. This also finds support in the parable of the Pharisee and the publican (Luke 18:9-14). Notice in this parable, the Pharisee could boast that he kept the law, yet he was not justified. In keeping with our current discussion concerning righteousness, note Luke's introductory words to this parable (Luke 18:9): "And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others." Surely, we must conclude that justification and the impartation of the kind of righteousness that will grant us access to heaven is not based on obedience, but solely on God's great mercy and Christ's finished work on the cross.
I agree that we ought not miss the message of the parable that we ought to forgive others. However, in light of all that we read in the New Testament, we ought not think that our salvation is dependent upon it. Rather, we ought to regard the forgiveness granted to others as indicative of the new birth that has already taken place. Notice Jesus commands that we are to forgive "from our hearts". The problem we have as humans is a heart problem, and only the new birth can fix it. As Titus 3:5 indicates clearly, this is according to God's mercy, "not by works of righteousness which we have done."
According to the deuteronomic theology of Jesus reflected in Paul, salvation is a function of our obedience to the teaching of Jesus. As we walk in obedience his righteousness becomes our righteousness before God. It is not wholly extrinsic or divorced from our walk as per traditional theology.
Again, numerous New Testament passages, such as Titus 3:5 and Romans 4:5 strongly argue against this idea. While we're on the subject of Deuteronomy, notice 18: 15-19, which predicts for us the coming of the Messiah and a stern command that we must obey His words. This text looks ahead to a new revelation from the Messiah Himself. And what did the Messiah say?
Hopefully this helps to clarify my approach to the teaching of Paul in terms of the universal guilt of mankind and how faith in Jesus Christ provides the basis for salvation from sin. I welcome, John, your helping me understand how this interpretation of Paul differs from yours and why.
Frankly JB, I don't know what else can be said. I think the Bible is very clear about our salvation not being dependant upon our performance, but upon our faith in the person and work of Jesus. If you want to persist in your belief that salvation is somehow owed to people who are obedient, then you are welcomed to of course. I can't in all honesty to the scriptures follow you however. If you want to send another mail defending your view on this I will read it, but I doubt I'll respond. Though I enjoy a good chat it's really hard to deal with someone who refuses to acknowledge the plain meaning of the text. No offense, JB, but I realize that there are 66 books in the Bible filled with verses of which endless speculations and interpretations can be made. If you can't even acknowledge what is written in the simplest terms, how can we hope to have a meaningful discussion on anything contained in the scriptures? The whole thing becomes a colossal waste of time (something I am always running short of).
Stay well my friend
John